cornerofmadness

March 4th is National Grammar Day, and every year we have a chat about something grammar-related. We’ve talked favorite grammar quirks and our grammar pet peeves before; this year, we’re discussing common grammar mistakes and their fixes – things that trip us up personally, and tricks we’ve learned to not mix them up. (But also, we’re all huge grammar and language nerds and we ended up getting really distracted and talking about pet peeves and, uh, spelling.)
The contributors to this round table discussion are: polls, Sanne, jumblejen, Mikki Madison, Nina Waters, Robin, Sage Mooreland, theirprofoundbond, Tryan A Bex, Rascal Hartley, Nova Mason, boneturtle, Hermit, Lucy K.R., Shea Sullivan, Dei Walker, MJ, Alessa Riel and 7 anonymous contributors.
Note that parts of this conversation were rearranged for coherence, and that some parts of the discussion were removed to streamline reading.

lay vs. lie

Sanne: I have one that I still haven’t found something for to make it stick but maybe you guys can help out: the lie down vs lay down thing!
polls: Find a memorable sentence? My solution to my rise/raise issue was “I’m the one who gripped you tight and raised you from perdition”
Nina Waters: this gets muddled because of tenses.

lie – present tense = lie; past tense = lay
lay – present tense = lay; past tense = laid

writing in present tense:

lie down = I lie down, as in, I put my body on a surface, flat.
lay down = I lay down [an item], as in, I have placed an item, flat, on a surface (such as a blanket on a person)

writing in past tense:

lie down = I lay down, as in, I put my body on a surface, flat, in the past
lay down = I laid down [an item], as in, I have placed an item on a surface.

Examples:

I lay down on the bed.
I laid the book down on the bed.
I lie down on the bed.
I lay the book down on the bed.

I know it’s messy, and I absolutely struggle with it myself, and this is only the quickest and dirtiest of explanations, but this is the gist: the entire confusion stems from the past tense of “lie” being “lay.”

farther vs further

jumblejen: Further vs farther is one I cannot master, personally
Mikki Madison: the only thing that has ever helped me with further/farther is that farther is like, physical distance
Nina Waters: further and farther is extremely easy. Farther is for literal physical distance. Further is for everything else.
Mikki Madison: but even then that’s dicey
Robin: for farther/further, Cambridge dictionary’s website just says, “Farther and further are comparative adverbs or adjectives. They are the irregular comparative forms of far. We use them to talk about distance. There is no difference in meaning between them. Further is more common. [Examples]: We can’t go any further; the road’s blocked. After this, I felt a little refreshed but as I came over the hill, my legs rebelled. I could walk no further.
Farther, and, much less commonly, further can be used as adjectives to refer to distance away from the speaker. [Examples]: He could see a small boat on the farther shore. At the further end of the village stood an old ruined house.
Nina Waters: yes, a ton of this boils down to “language is fuzzy and ever changing.” some of this may also be British English vs. US English
Robin: The further-farther thing does seem to be more a thing in the US than the UK looking it up a bit more
Nina Waters: Merriam-Webster now also says I’m wrong about Farther vs. Further. But when I first started editing, that was 100% the rule I was taught, so shrug.

less vs. fewer

Sage Mooreland: Less = cannot be counted. Fewer = can be counted. I have less energy = energy cannot be counted. I have fewer spoons = spoons can be counted

where vs. in which

Sage Mooreland: Where = a physical location. In which = everything else. I need to know where you found this. = I need the physical location you got this thing. I love this chapter in which the heroine stabs the prince. = I love the thing that happens in this chapter.

that, which, and who

jumblejen: Which to refer to a person – I remember it’s a person and so it should be “who” (generally speaking).
Nina Waters: (also applies to “that” when referring to a person! I see people use “that” for that constantly)
polls: and then to make things more fun, you got “whose” referring to things. “the article whose author won a pulitzer’s…”

who vs. whom

Nina Waters: if anyone knows a trick for who vs. whom I’d love to hear it, I hate that one.
Anonymous #1: i teach grammar. it is part of my job. i use whom. i actively tell my students when they’re writing/speaking english (their native language) that unless they KNOW it’s whom, just say who. like sometimes the wrong thing is the correct thing? if that makes any sense
Tryan A Bex: Whom is the object form, who is for the subject. If you can replace it with her or put to in front, then it’s whom.
Anonymous #2: My go-to for whom is that it’s roughly equivalent to “him” vs who is roughly equivalent to “he”. e.g. “to whom it may concern” = “to him” vs “who did that” = “he did that”
Sage Mooreland: full brain trick I teach my students:

who = he –> Who is here? He is here?
whoM = hiM –> You sent that to whom? You sent that to him?

since and because

Nina Waters: a lot of the ones people mix up are because of colloquial speech, like, “since” should only be used for time, but we use it to mean “because.” but. it doesn’t and never does mean “because.”
polls: hey, it’s been in use like this since the 16th century (via Merriam-Webster) – “Since is used as a causal conjunction (and has been since the 16th century) in the same way that because is used: Since you ate the ice cream last night, we don’t have any dessert tonight.”
Nina Waters: shrug I allow it in dialogue, but I edit it out of narrative. unless the narrative pov is very… person. (like, I’d allow it in first person). Maybe it’s the autism, I tend to err on the side of “technically correct.”
Robin: That’s so interesting when I can find “because” as a meaning of “since” in some dictionaries
Nina Waters: some of it is also probably “I’m autistic enough that I hate the fuzzy places.” rather than “I am objectively correct.”
Tryan A Bex: Anyway, you can pry causal since from my cold, dead hands. Because is like hitting you over the head with a baseball bat, while since is like handing it to you on a platter. It’s both gentler and more distinguished. (Disclaimer that I won’t pick a fight with an editor unless I really think it changes the intended meaning.)

colloquial usage

Robin: At what point is the line drawn between incorrect and “this is used commonly in colloquial speech so it might not have been correct at some point in the past but as the majority of people use it now it can’t really be called incorrect”?
Nina Waters: yeah that’s an impossible line to actual draw so editors and presses just have to make a call
Rascal Hartley: At my work we have the “dont sound like an asshole” rule where if it’s more common to be incorrect, and explaining it makes you sound like an asshole (“data always takes plural verbs bc data is the plural version of the Latin datum”), then you do it incorrect. The data is sound.

alright vs. all right

Nina Waters: I’m getting close to caving on one, tbh. “Alright” is technically wrong. It’s “All right.” And as recently as a decade ago sources were still saying to edit it to “all right,” but now they’re mostly not, and I’m about this close to changing that rule for the Press.
Robin: See “alright” does bother me, I think because it feels like a spelling error, like the alot, rather than just a word choice
jumblejen: I remember back in the 80s that the Babysitter’s Club books had a thing about “alright” being all wrong, and I didn’t really get it then. I technically get it now, but use “alright” all the time.
Robin: I think the only time I would use “alright” in a story is if I was showing in-universe writing by someone who writes informally
theirprofoundbond: I use “alright” and begrudgingly edit to “all right” for the Press
Robin: Alright looks wrong to me but some characters would use it that way in writing. Like I wouldn’t use it in narration or dialogue but if a character was idk texting someone maybe I would if they would
Tryan A Bex: Hmmm I was thinking that it’s like any way vs anyway, as in, all right means all the parts are right and alright means agreement basically. That’s just vibes though.
Nina Waters: Nope there’s no difference like that. One is technically correct (all right) and the other has become so common colloquially in US English as to have effectively taken over (alright) to the point that it’s extremely common for even professionally edited things to use the contraction. This is another in the “when I was first editing seriously alright was considered totally not okay but these days…” When I’m writing casually I also use alright.

compound words and… not compound words

theirprofoundbond: Okay so here’s the one that Activates me:

Every day is a phrase that means “each day.” “I went for a run every day.”
Everyday is a word that means “ordinary” or “commonplace.” “I went for my everyday run.”

They are are not and will never be interchangeable! I have seen… numerous… large, multi-million-dollar companies make this error on their products, in their copy, on their signage… It sends me into a tizzy every single time.
Nina Waters: this also for anyway vs. any way and some other similar ones
theirprofoundbond: Yes! I see that one less often but that’s a good similar one

it’s and its

Nina Waters: a big one for me is it’s and its. I know it should be obvious, but I’ve always struggled with it. My trick is I actively break it down: “if this would read ‘it is’ or ‘it has,’ then it’s it’s. if would break the sentence if I did that, then it’s its.”
jumblejen: Same. Will often whisper “it is” anywhere I see it when editing. And the adjust when needed in either direction.
Sage Mooreland: Bonus round: its’ is not a word. No, it is not the plural possessive form of it. NOT A WORD.

they’re, their, and there

Nina Waters: I have a variation I’ve used for they’re and their/there, too – like, their = people, there = place, they’re = “if it’s ‘they are’ and no other time”

hyphenation

Rascal Hartley: I think mine is adjective hyphenation. Logically I know it only happens before the noun, but my heart says some adjectives just need hyphenation no matter where they are in the sentence. I dont have tricks for this bc i will die on this hill lol

while and although

boneturtle: that reminds me of one my philosophy teacher beat out of me in college: “while” and “although.” although colloquially, it’s totally normal to say “while Sally has two phones, only one of them works,” the actual correct phrasing is “although Sally has two phones, only one of them works.” or “while that’s a fine thing to do, i’d prefer you do this instead” (should be “although that’s a fine thing to do, etc.”)

affect and effect

Shea Sullivan: affect/effect. And I remember because the affect leads to the effect.

breathe and breath

Anonymous #1: I personally always have to say breath/breathe out loud to get them right
Anonymous #4: I remember breathe vs breath by telling myself “E at the end means pronounce it like the letter E”

[person] and I vs. [person] and me

Anonymous #5: When to use me vs. I: ignore the “and X” and use whichever makes sense/sounds right. It’s “Teddy and I went for a walk,” because “Me went for a walk,” doesn’t sound right. Likewise, “The package was delivered to Teddy and me,” is right. Not “The package was delivered to Teddy and I.”

comma splicing

Tryan A Bex: Ooh here’s one for comma splicing. If both parts can stand on their own as a full sentence, you need a conjunction or a semi-colon. If one of the parts is not a full sentence, then you can use just a comma. If you can say “as follows” you can use a colon.
Sage Mooreland: but don’t use them together! One or the other

y’all… and other contractions

Rascal Hartley: one but the one that incenses me most is “ya’ll”. I live in the south. I see it all the time. like i get why people think that but it’s short for “you all”, ie y’all, not “ya all.” I argue back that no self-respecting southern person would say “ya all” bc the two a’s require a near glottal stop between to say whereas “you all” can be smoothly combined into one sound as is the southern way. Y’all’d’ve’f’I’d’ve. Etc.
jumblejen: Couldn’t’ve is a fun one. I used it in a fic one time and had a mental debate with myself if it was ok to leave. In the end, I decided that the character literally says that in the source material in the way they pronounce it, so it was accurate to represent the dialog that way in the fic. But it felt wrong…

word pet peeves

( Read more... )