Writerly Ways

[cornerofmadness]

First off I have another writing related post here if you’re interested. Also if you happen to know of any original fiction writing prompt communities, let me know. I have others who would like this info, too. Preferably ones that don’t want you to post the whole of your writing since publishers don’t like that. I belong to origfic_bingo (prompts) and gsd_rtfn (daily word count challenge) but both are sporadic.


I know I’ve spoken about point of view before but it’s on my mind again. I was talking to evil_little_dog the other night about this as I finished up the latest Dresden Files. There is one thing that is sort of lacking in the book and that’s the affect of Harry’s actions on the others (don’t worry, no spoilers here) because it’s a first person point of view. zippitgood suggested reexamining the point of view in Machiavelli Moon for the same reason, a bit of emotional flatness since some events don’t really impact the point of view character.

I’m well aware that many people don’t like first person pov or close third (whatever that’s technically called). I don’t like second person pov though I’d be hard pressed to name a novel that uses that. I do like first person, a lot actually, though I’ll confess it, I have trouble with my tenses when I use it. Don’t know why. That said, I probably wouldn’t be quick to write an erotic story in first person. However, they make use of close third a lot in those stories.

Probably one of the easiest to write is third person (at least for me) or omniscient. Some hate that if there’s head hopping but I’m seeing that being published more and more (looking at the Gamache mystery series for that). Another thing I’ve seen done before and I personally like (not sure about others) some chapters are in first person while others are in third (Anno Dracula and something much more recent, but I’d be lying if I said I remembered what it was). There is not going to be one answer here that pleases everyone.

But just looking at the Dresden Files for a moment and what is lost in first person.
Karrin – book 12-13 had huge implications for all of Harry’s friends and family but we can’t really know the hell she’s going through because Harry’s not there for most of it. Butcher did write a short story with her as something of a cheat.
Thomas – same books, he was tortured half mad and his demon got much more of a hold on him but we see nothing of this struggle because Harry isn’t there and even if he was, would his brother tell him? I’m not sure if there’s a short story cheat to see this (if there is and you know about it, tell me please.)
Justine – she’s either schizo or bipolar (I can’t remember which) and being held together by Thomas’s feeding off of her. Now that is just fascinating but again not something that can be explored with any depth.

On the other hand, what we gain is a deep insight on one character and get to view the world through his lens. It’s a trade off like so many things.

I guess this is on my mind because that incubus story I was mentioning already isn’t going as planned (If you misses that writing post, it’s here. I’d love to hear your thoughts on it and the proposed stories.) He only wants to talk in first person pov. But I know that I want 2 main characters, not just the one. I could flip flop first and third I suppose or find a way to wrestle him into submission. Sigh.

Today I’m just going to put the yearly count as not much has changed and my migraine is so bad I don’t want to go sorting through all the stories to post up. Also Kanda is draped over my left shoulder in baby burping position and just will not go away. Every time I toss him, he comes back and it’s hard to type with 16 pounds of cat crushing your chest and purring in your ear loudly.

yearly count -

04865 / 125000
(3.89%)

Comments

[marlex.livejournal.com]

Taking a quick tangent on first person, I've found it works quite well in audiobook format if you have a good reader. The Dresdin Files books, read by James Marsters, is a great example. I've only actually read one of the books, Ghost Stories, because Marsters wasn't available and they went with somebody else.

(As for Thomas' battle with his demon post torture, that has always been one of my biggest "what happened?" issues with the series. There is a short story (included in Side Jobs) in Thomas' POV. While it doesn't deal with that issue, it does allow us to see the series' world and Harry through Thomas' eyes for a while.)

As for not seeing the broader picture, I can understand, although the same could be said for third person tales limited to one character. Although she cheated with the first chapters of most of the books, the Harry Potter books are an example of this. We see everything through Harry's eyes, even if it isn't first person, and don't always see how his actions affect Ron and Hermione, except when they are with him and even then only through his own perceptions.

One book that tried to use this to its advantage was The Hunger Games, in which Katniss describes Peeta's actions and reactions, completely missing his true feelings, although it was painfully obvious to the reader. On one hand, this works well in helping the reader see how her situation and her childhood shaped her worldview differently than our own, it also got terribly frustrating as the story progressed.

As a personal preference, I'm not a fan of head jumping, although in my mind, that refers to jumping from character to character in the same chapter.

I have no problem, however, with devoting chapters to particular characters in third person. The Young Wizard series is an interesting example of this. The first two books are entirely from Nita's POV. The third book, by necessity, alternates between Nita and her sister. Kit, who is essentially the second main character with Nita, doesn't get POV chapters until book six, again because so much of that story was taking place away from Nita due to the circumstances of the book.

Taking this to the extreme is George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire, which has about 2.3 million POV characters, although he says the remaining books will introduce no one new.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

I have yet to hear the Dresden audio books but have heard nothing but good things about James's performance.

I have read Side Jobs and the Novella and some birthday one (I'm not much of a short story reader but I usually pester the library to get ones that a few authors like Gaimen and Butcher are in)

You're very right about the Potter books. I tend to use that tight third in my erotica books because that's what most people do. However, my erotica nano isn't and that has gotten me worried. That said, there is no way it could possibly work in a tight pov.

I don't mind head hopping but it can be confusing. The Gamache mysteries are multiple characters on the same freaking page. If you're not paying attention, you're hosed.

Like you I prefer alternating multiple povs in various chapters. What I don't see often is the arrangement I mentioned, first person one chapter, third person the next.

[marlex.livejournal.com]

Yeah. James is phenomenal. There are many times where he puts in a lot of emotion into the reading, as if Harry was really tell the story. One example I can remember is during the climatic moments in Changes, when Harry is describing what happened and he says something like, "Oh god." And James' voice cracks as he's saying it, and... wow.

One thing I forgot to mention on first person. I haven't used much in my own writing, but when I have, I've found two problems I have to overcome. First, I find myself putting in too much foreshadowing. I mean, first person is supposed to be the character telling the story at some future date, so he knows how it ends. Building on that, I tend to get a little too conversationly (is that a word?).

I can't think of a book I've read that alternated first and third.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

I will have to check it out. I like James anyhow.

Really? See, sometimes I see first person as being right there, right now, not as a future date (except for the super annoying chapter end hooks of 'if only I knew then what I know now.)

Anno Dracula did. I know I've read one recently that did but for the life of me I can't remember it

[marlex.livejournal.com]

See, that's what I have to actively avoid doing when I write in first person. I guess it's just how I approach it.

It probably comes with the fact that the first--and really only--first person story of length I started was going to span about a decade, and the POV character was to have changed greatly by the end from where he started.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

a lot of people DO do it that way (and in third person, that's the reason I stopped buying Kathy Reichs books and turned to the library. Almost every chapter ended like that.)

ah yes well see that would make sense in that case

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

You know, if you have a group here, maybe we could have an LJ community of our own for original fic. I think I have a couple of friends who might be interested (I know they write, don't know if they'd like a community).

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

I actually do have it. I would like to turn it into a critique group (but a small one with low word counts so it's less daunting). It's been many things, firstly a place to go to whine about nanowrimo when mzzgoddessblue created it then handed it to me and it was a prompt community for a year or so then a critique group and now nothing.

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

Let's start it up again. I need a shove. When I did Yuletide I felt really good, but haven't written since then. What's the name?

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

I was waiting for a couple weeks til I got a big fanfic thing out of my face but I guess I put out the call again. nanomowhinging

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

Actually, I need to wait until I get my courses started --my term starts in mid-February and we have an update on the teaching platform that's causing me to have to change a lot of stuff.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

okay waiting is good for me too at this point. mid-february? Are you on quarters> good luck with the changes

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

We're on semesters, but I teach a short session (like summer school--same hours in fewer weeks). I'm hoping they'll make changes that mean I don't have to...maybe!

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

ah okay.

good luck with that.

[sholio]

I often struggle with figuring out what POV to write in. For some reason this is no problem at all for me in fanfic, and an absolute nightmare of epic proportions in original fic! One odd thing is that I seem to default to first-person in original fic, and never, ever write anything but third person fanfic. I have one novel that's currently stalled out at about 60K words because, among other things, it switches between two first-person narrators -- one person gets one chapter, then it switches in the next chapter -- and even though I've read books like that and never found it confusing, I'm worried that it's not the best narrative voice for the story. I'm thinking about going back to the beginning and changing the whole thing to third person.

I'll basically read anything, though. I remember, a very long time ago, having a prejudice against first person and preferring to read third person, multiple POV, for basically the reasons you cite. But over the years that's almost completely fallen away. I rarely feel like I'm missing anything unless I end up becoming more interested in one of the side characters than in the main character and their story, but as long as I'm fascinated enough by the main story, I don't feel an absence. (Having said that, I really like it when authors offer up side stories from other characters' POVs, like Butcher does.) There's an immediacy to first person that I really like. You feel like you're in the character's head, hearing the story in their voice.

I do like it when writers play with POV a bit. I'm fond of unreliable narrators as long as the writer plays fair with the audience and doesn't cheat. (I absolutely hate narrative cheats, especially withholding key bits of information, like having the POV character see something plot-critical but not describing it to the reader in order to maintain the element of "suspense" a little longer. I don't get suspense. I just get annoyed.)

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

oh ouch, changing pov in a novel is a monumental task. I've tried that once. Yes I've seen books with 2 different first person povs with labeled chapters but they are rarer

I also read almost anything pov wise and I do like those side stories even if i go nuts trying to track them down.

I'm less fond of unreliable narrators but mostly because I've encountered them in the cheaty sense. I hate that. Joss Whedon used to drive me nuts with that when a character would withhold info that any normal person would share just to up the drama. Like you, no drama just annoyance.