wasting time

[cornerofmadness]

while my computer crawls along (AVG viral scans take it about two damn hours for reasons known only to itself) I decided to answer one of those fanfic meme's. I wasn't going to simply because of time but since I can barely do anything on the computer (and my only other chore is cleaning the house. snort, yeah right), I figured why not.

Taken from oh....the whole Flist at this point.

BtVS

1. The first character you first fell in love with:

Giles. I absolutely adored Giles, sexy smart and unexpectantly funny. By S2 Spike came to rival him. I couldn’t get enough of evil Spike. He also was smart, ingenious enough to videotape the slayer to get her moves, full of plans though his choice in helpers left a lot to be desired.

2. The character you never expected to love as much as you do now:

Buffy herself. She struck me as vacuous and flighty and I didn’t click with her. I was a little too much like Willow at that age. The Buffy types annoyed me then and they annoy me for the most part now

3. The character everyone else loves that you don't:

Andrew. No need to even mull this over. Here’s a character that helped pick out women to turn in to sex slaves, bitched when he couldn’t be the first to rape her, dumped her murdered body, tried later to kill various members of the team right up to Xander and Dawn who were helping him escape and then turns around and is welcomed into the group without so much as a mea culpa and we’re expected to like him because he’s funny

4. The character you love that everyone else hates:

Riley. Yes, he could have used more of a personality but he was intelligent, loyal, cute, strong and had flashes of humor. I should be so lucky to have a boyfriend like him. I always felt sorry for Marc Blucas who was all to aware of how much the fans hated him (and respect for Mr. Marsters who ran interference for him once with fans at a con).


5. The character you used to love but don't any longer:

Spike. His complete overexposure in S6-7 and then on AtS 5, really cooled me on his character and I’m just now finding his voice again for fanfic. It was getting to the point in 6-7 where I was just like ‘retitle it the Spike show, that’s all it’s about anyhow.’ I also cooled a bit towards Willow after her turn to evil. We never got her back after that EXCEPT for on Angel (what was up with that? The only time Willow was written like Willow and it wasn’t even on Buffy). And Giles became a real heartless freak in S7 (so I guess there were quite a few characters that I didn’t like towards the end)


AtS

1. The first character you fell in love with:
Well I already loved Angel by the time he got there, so I can’t really count him. So, I guess it would be Kate. She was the first adult female interaction we got to see Angel dealing with outside of Jenny and Dru and he never really interacted with Jenny and Dru...that’s not normal. Kate was someone who didn’t need him per se. She was already tough enough on her own. I thought she was interesting and was sorry to see her go. That said, I wasn’t too keen on them pushing her as a love interest only because at this point Angel had no idea he could have a relationship so long as he’s not perfectly happy. He should be running fast from the mere idea of a relationship.

2. The character you never expected to love as much as you do now:

Wesley. I couldn’t stand him on Buffy. The changes they made in Wes were great. Out of all the characters he had the most personal growth. I enjoyed seeing that.


3. The character everyone else loves that you don't:

Fred. Can’t stand her. Don’t know why exactly. I think it’s because she can do anything. Any science question, just ask Fred. I’ve got two separate science degrees, in two unrelated fields and I can’t touch Fred’s overwhelming scientific know-all. I also can’t buy into it. That and she’s a total flirt. We call Faith skeezy but outside of Connor was there a male Fred didn’t make a pass for?

4. The character you love that everyone else hates:

Okay, seriously, if I have to answer this, you are obviously a total stranger to my LJ so introduce yourself to me. I was totally amazed at how fans simply didn’t get that Connor couldn’t ‘get over’ his issues. It’s like they’ve never met anyone raised by a prejudiced parent (how do we think hatred and prejudice spreads anyhow) or have a clue what kind of PTSD would be incurred with Connor’s upbringing (with all respect to the fans, obviously Angel didn’t get it either and he has no excuse)

5. The character you used to love but don't any longer:
Cordelia. It took me a while on BtVS to like her because, like Willow, I was a frequent target of my school’s version of the Cordettes. That said, I loved how perfectly they nailed that stereotype. And Cordelia slowly grew into a better woman up until S3 when she became the perfect warrioress and otherwise saintly creature that could do no wrong. After that version of Cordy, Evil!Cordy came as a relief

Comments

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

and respect for Mr. Marsters who ran interference for him once with fans at a con

I gotta hear this story!

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

It was in an interview with James and what I remember (given it's been 4 years now), Marc was truly upset, and taken all the fan hatred personally (and who'd blame him? That's one of the reasons I didn't read B/A fanfic. Riley was so often depicted as a moron or abusive or both) and James tried to cheer him up and during one of the Q&A sessions took the fans to task for being so derogatory to Marc (I remember some of the boards from back them and you probably do too, they attacked not only Riley but Marc too)

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I think fans sometimes forget that (a) actors aren't their characters, and (b) actors are human beings with feelings. It's one thing to character-bash on the internet, it's an entirely different thing to actor-bash because you hate the character, on-line or off, and it's a whole nother level of intolerable ignorance to bash an actor to his/her face because you don't like his character. My God.

We fans get in our little (relatively) safe fantasy cocoon on web boards and LJ where we can write pornography about the actors' alleged private lives, bitch up one side and down the other about characters and story lines we don't like and how the actors contribute to that, etc, etc, but I assume it's understood that that *IS* a fantasy cocoon that doesn't extend beyond those we share these stories/thoughts with.

But fan sense of entitlement reaches to insane levels some times.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

I also cooled a bit towards Willow after her turn to evil.

Willow had the great virtue of caring enough to want to fix so many things. And it turned out to be her great flaw too, since she hadn't learned boundaries or guidelines over when it was not appropriate to try to do that. IMHO, ME really biffed up her character arc in later seasons and took a lot of the joy out of it.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

no arguments. I'll admit i'm more than a little squicked by real person fanfic. I've never really read any but the mere idea about writing fanfic for real people just doesn't sit well with me.

But fan sense of entitlement reaches to insane levels some times

It really does. The internet seems to have made it worse. I don't remember things being this bad let's say 10-15 years ago with ST:TNG for instance or maybe it was and I was blind to it. I know recently that Mercedes McNab and of course VK have also been subjected to this kind of treatment by irate fans.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I was never a part of fandom before BtVS and the internet. I was Trekkie since the days of early '70's syndication, but my fandom of shows was always a private thing I kept in my living room, and maybe only chatted with family members about occassionally. So I can't speak to how fandom was before the internet.

I definitely DON'T want to hear about VK getting fan-bashed. I don't think I could bear it.

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

I never could understand how a fan's dislike of a character could transfer to the actor; as you say, some fans don't seem to be able to separate fantasy from reality. As William Shatner once said, those folks should just get a life! It's TV folks, and Marc is not Riley.
I liked Riley. While he wasn't my favourite character, I certainly didn't think he ruined the show. He was cute, and a regular kind of guy, and he loved Buffy. That made him okay in my books.
On Angel, I loved Connor. He kind of grabbed me by the heart strings, and I so wanted him to figure out how to be happy, and that Angel really did love him. His scene in the church with Cordy (Peace Out?) made me cry.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

Willow had the great virtue of caring enough to want to fix so many things. And it turned out to be her great flaw too, since she hadn't learned boundaries or guidelines over when it was not appropriate to try to do that. IMHO, ME really biffed up her character arc in later seasons and took a lot of the joy out of it.

No argument. and you hit on something Chris and I were thinking of whipping up into an essay (though it probably already has been somewhere) WIllow never did learn boundaries, from the moment we met her. She was hacker, boundaries didn't mean much. This becomes deadly later on and I still to this day can't figure out how she, Xander, Dawn and Giles could actually banish Buffy from her own house. I almost quit watching at that point even knowing the end was nigh.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

Total agreement from me on all of this.

His scene in the church with Cordy (Peace Out?) made me cry.

No kidding. I'm there thinking don't let Evil LIttle Dog notice...oh hell she's probably crying too. If I wanted to cry, I'd go watch Joan of Arcadia

[stephanierb.livejournal.com]

I think it’s because she can do anything. Any science question, just ask Fred. I’ve got two separate science degrees, in two unrelated fields and I can’t touch Fred’s overwhelming scientific know-all. I also can’t buy into it.

WORD. I said pretty much the same thing in my journal. Her seemingly limitless knowledge of all things science was just too much for me to suspend my disbelief. I love seeing a strong, intelligent female character as much as the next woman, but I just couldn't buy it. Perhaps we're supposed to believe that she was able to catch up on all her scientific journals during the five years she spent living in that cave in Pylea.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Willow never did learn boundaries, from the moment we met her.

She was just so talented, and she seemed so sweet and mature, so she was never given the supervision/discipline she needed. And didn't understand it as something important - only a boundary to step past. It's as though she's a doctor who learned to practice medicine on her own, but without really learning the hippocratic oath and ethics system, and why it's in place.

The mutiny/ejection is a mess, because the whole storyline is a mess, but that scene made me love Dawn whereas I am usually only meh on her.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

I've been doing the paper zine fandoms since about 1980 but it's different. You just print fan art and stories. you don't get the input on characters good or bad unless you wrote an actual letter to a writer/artist.

yeah, it bothered me but he's hinted at it in his interviews, poor thing

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

a lot of this is just bad/lazy SF/Fantasy writing - she's the "science" person, so she can do whatever "science" things are needed to fit a given plot. But it's really annoying, and it makes it easier to find the character annoying.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

a lot of this is just bad/lazy SF/Fantasy writing - she's the "science" person, so she can do whatever "science" things are needed to fit a given plot. But it's really annoying, and it makes it easier to find the character annoying

Oh absolutely. You see it in other SF related shows too. Sam on Stargate leaps instantly to mind. I don't like her either but it's fun watching Dad drool over her.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I'll admit i'm more than a little squicked by real person fanfic. I've never really read any but the mere idea about writing fanfic for real people just doesn't sit well with me.

I have friends who write it and read it, and though I don't *get* their interest in it, I try not to be judgmental. I remember being 14 and writing what in retrospect could be considered Shaun Cassidy real-person fic. Not pornographic, but not especially based on any facts I knew about his life, either.

I don't get the fascination with actor's private lives that motivates someone to read People Magazine, so of course I'm not going to get RPF. However, it at least is a perfectly understandable thing to do--read about someone's life--in People Magazine or elsewhere. And maybe even writing speculative or downright fictional stories about celebrities is an understandable extension of fantasy.

What squicks me is when it shifts over into an inability to judge reality well anymore. I read some stuff written by Orlando Bloom slashers about his recent break-up with his girlfriend and it was just vile, sexist tripe.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

She was just so talented, and she seemed so sweet and mature, so she was never given the supervision/discipline she needed

Yep and a lot of the fault lies with Giles too for at least not trying to do something. He knew she was messing with magic, even invading his books that he didn't want anyone in but he does nothing. granted his responsibilities lie with Buffy but nothing is even said to WIllow.

Yeah I did like Dawn there. I was liking Dawn a little at the end of S5 beginning of S6 where they gave her some maturity

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

But fans talked to each other back then. Talked at water coolers, talked in their living rooms, talked at conventions. Maybe it was the lack of on-going conversation, though, that made it different. Unless you regularly got together and talked fan-talk, you never got to a certain level with it.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

WORD. I said pretty much the same thing in my journal. Her seemingly limitless knowledge of all things science was just too much for me to suspend my disbelief

Yep especially since physics (her field) is so very very different from chem and bio. (my fields) that you don't often see cross over. BUt as DL pointed out (LJ ate my response) that it IS typical SF hack writing. We see it elsewhere's like Sam on Stargate

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

Unless you regularly got together and talked fan-talk, you never got to a certain level with it.

That's my thought on it. On my site we have a button that talks about how much more annoying you can be as a fan online. You can toss out your ideas and people around the world can react to it.. Right now the world is bigger than ever before. I'm talking to fans in Malta and Australia and Peru, things that weren't easily done before the net.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

I think it comes down to two things - that Giles sees Buffy as his responsibility and is uncomfortable being so involved with the others, and because he wants to believe Willow is responsible enough to handle the power - particularly as he sees such need for what she can do. (From the very beginning he turns a blind eye to her transgressions as a hacker.)

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

Agreed. ANd while I might entertain ideas and fantasies about actors or singers, which is natural, I don't really feel the need to write them down and let people read them. I don't really care that others do but it just has an almost stalkerish feel to some of it. like what you mentioned.

What squicks me is when it shifts over into an inability to judge reality well anymore. I read some stuff written by Orlando Bloom slashers about his recent break-up with his girlfriend and it was just vile, sexist tripe

That's what I'm really thinking about. ANd I wonder how open does this leave people to being sued. If Rice and Rowling can sue over fanfic, I wonder what rights an actor has about stuff like that? Probably less than an author.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Jane, I never realized you were a Connor lover. I didn't think you disliked him or anything, but I figured you were a "he's O.K."-type fan who was reading Masq's fanfic because Masq wrote it. You know, to be polite.

; )

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

no argument. It would have been Jenny who made a difference. She most likely would have been a major guiding role for WIllow (lord knows her parents weren't) but she was robbed of the chance

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

God, could you imagine an actor stumbling across some of the stuff that's on the internet "about" them? I think I would be so embarassed I wouldn't sue because then other people would have to read it.

One argument I've heard about RPS, especially the stuff that's more of a stretch, like cracktrailer, is that it's not RPS at all, but just original characters given certain actor's faces, bodies (and names). Take that far enough, and you're just giving the actors in question a role to play, and "that's OK" because they're actors, after all.

By that logic, *I'm* writing RPS because I have "credits" in the Destroyer naming certain actors as playing the roles I'm writing, and therefore pretending that my series really is a television series starring those actors.

I'm rambling now.

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

Not just how wide you stretch your net, but how often. I get on the fan boards every day. I never talked to other fans that often before s. 3 Buffy.