wasting time

[cornerofmadness]

while my computer crawls along (AVG viral scans take it about two damn hours for reasons known only to itself) I decided to answer one of those fanfic meme's. I wasn't going to simply because of time but since I can barely do anything on the computer (and my only other chore is cleaning the house. snort, yeah right), I figured why not.

Taken from oh....the whole Flist at this point.

BtVS

1. The first character you first fell in love with:

Giles. I absolutely adored Giles, sexy smart and unexpectantly funny. By S2 Spike came to rival him. I couldn’t get enough of evil Spike. He also was smart, ingenious enough to videotape the slayer to get her moves, full of plans though his choice in helpers left a lot to be desired.

2. The character you never expected to love as much as you do now:

Buffy herself. She struck me as vacuous and flighty and I didn’t click with her. I was a little too much like Willow at that age. The Buffy types annoyed me then and they annoy me for the most part now

3. The character everyone else loves that you don't:

Andrew. No need to even mull this over. Here’s a character that helped pick out women to turn in to sex slaves, bitched when he couldn’t be the first to rape her, dumped her murdered body, tried later to kill various members of the team right up to Xander and Dawn who were helping him escape and then turns around and is welcomed into the group without so much as a mea culpa and we’re expected to like him because he’s funny

4. The character you love that everyone else hates:

Riley. Yes, he could have used more of a personality but he was intelligent, loyal, cute, strong and had flashes of humor. I should be so lucky to have a boyfriend like him. I always felt sorry for Marc Blucas who was all to aware of how much the fans hated him (and respect for Mr. Marsters who ran interference for him once with fans at a con).


5. The character you used to love but don't any longer:

Spike. His complete overexposure in S6-7 and then on AtS 5, really cooled me on his character and I’m just now finding his voice again for fanfic. It was getting to the point in 6-7 where I was just like ‘retitle it the Spike show, that’s all it’s about anyhow.’ I also cooled a bit towards Willow after her turn to evil. We never got her back after that EXCEPT for on Angel (what was up with that? The only time Willow was written like Willow and it wasn’t even on Buffy). And Giles became a real heartless freak in S7 (so I guess there were quite a few characters that I didn’t like towards the end)


AtS

1. The first character you fell in love with:
Well I already loved Angel by the time he got there, so I can’t really count him. So, I guess it would be Kate. She was the first adult female interaction we got to see Angel dealing with outside of Jenny and Dru and he never really interacted with Jenny and Dru...that’s not normal. Kate was someone who didn’t need him per se. She was already tough enough on her own. I thought she was interesting and was sorry to see her go. That said, I wasn’t too keen on them pushing her as a love interest only because at this point Angel had no idea he could have a relationship so long as he’s not perfectly happy. He should be running fast from the mere idea of a relationship.

2. The character you never expected to love as much as you do now:

Wesley. I couldn’t stand him on Buffy. The changes they made in Wes were great. Out of all the characters he had the most personal growth. I enjoyed seeing that.


3. The character everyone else loves that you don't:

Fred. Can’t stand her. Don’t know why exactly. I think it’s because she can do anything. Any science question, just ask Fred. I’ve got two separate science degrees, in two unrelated fields and I can’t touch Fred’s overwhelming scientific know-all. I also can’t buy into it. That and she’s a total flirt. We call Faith skeezy but outside of Connor was there a male Fred didn’t make a pass for?

4. The character you love that everyone else hates:

Okay, seriously, if I have to answer this, you are obviously a total stranger to my LJ so introduce yourself to me. I was totally amazed at how fans simply didn’t get that Connor couldn’t ‘get over’ his issues. It’s like they’ve never met anyone raised by a prejudiced parent (how do we think hatred and prejudice spreads anyhow) or have a clue what kind of PTSD would be incurred with Connor’s upbringing (with all respect to the fans, obviously Angel didn’t get it either and he has no excuse)

5. The character you used to love but don't any longer:
Cordelia. It took me a while on BtVS to like her because, like Willow, I was a frequent target of my school’s version of the Cordettes. That said, I loved how perfectly they nailed that stereotype. And Cordelia slowly grew into a better woman up until S3 when she became the perfect warrioress and otherwise saintly creature that could do no wrong. After that version of Cordy, Evil!Cordy came as a relief

Comments

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

and respect for Mr. Marsters who ran interference for him once with fans at a con

I gotta hear this story!

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

It was in an interview with James and what I remember (given it's been 4 years now), Marc was truly upset, and taken all the fan hatred personally (and who'd blame him? That's one of the reasons I didn't read B/A fanfic. Riley was so often depicted as a moron or abusive or both) and James tried to cheer him up and during one of the Q&A sessions took the fans to task for being so derogatory to Marc (I remember some of the boards from back them and you probably do too, they attacked not only Riley but Marc too)

[masqthephlsphr.livejournal.com]

I think fans sometimes forget that (a) actors aren't their characters, and (b) actors are human beings with feelings. It's one thing to character-bash on the internet, it's an entirely different thing to actor-bash because you hate the character, on-line or off, and it's a whole nother level of intolerable ignorance to bash an actor to his/her face because you don't like his character. My God.

We fans get in our little (relatively) safe fantasy cocoon on web boards and LJ where we can write pornography about the actors' alleged private lives, bitch up one side and down the other about characters and story lines we don't like and how the actors contribute to that, etc, etc, but I assume it's understood that that *IS* a fantasy cocoon that doesn't extend beyond those we share these stories/thoughts with.

But fan sense of entitlement reaches to insane levels some times.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

I also cooled a bit towards Willow after her turn to evil.

Willow had the great virtue of caring enough to want to fix so many things. And it turned out to be her great flaw too, since she hadn't learned boundaries or guidelines over when it was not appropriate to try to do that. IMHO, ME really biffed up her character arc in later seasons and took a lot of the joy out of it.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

Willow had the great virtue of caring enough to want to fix so many things. And it turned out to be her great flaw too, since she hadn't learned boundaries or guidelines over when it was not appropriate to try to do that. IMHO, ME really biffed up her character arc in later seasons and took a lot of the joy out of it.

No argument. and you hit on something Chris and I were thinking of whipping up into an essay (though it probably already has been somewhere) WIllow never did learn boundaries, from the moment we met her. She was hacker, boundaries didn't mean much. This becomes deadly later on and I still to this day can't figure out how she, Xander, Dawn and Giles could actually banish Buffy from her own house. I almost quit watching at that point even knowing the end was nigh.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Willow never did learn boundaries, from the moment we met her.

She was just so talented, and she seemed so sweet and mature, so she was never given the supervision/discipline she needed. And didn't understand it as something important - only a boundary to step past. It's as though she's a doctor who learned to practice medicine on her own, but without really learning the hippocratic oath and ethics system, and why it's in place.

The mutiny/ejection is a mess, because the whole storyline is a mess, but that scene made me love Dawn whereas I am usually only meh on her.

[stephanierb.livejournal.com]

I think it’s because she can do anything. Any science question, just ask Fred. I’ve got two separate science degrees, in two unrelated fields and I can’t touch Fred’s overwhelming scientific know-all. I also can’t buy into it.

WORD. I said pretty much the same thing in my journal. Her seemingly limitless knowledge of all things science was just too much for me to suspend my disbelief. I love seeing a strong, intelligent female character as much as the next woman, but I just couldn't buy it. Perhaps we're supposed to believe that she was able to catch up on all her scientific journals during the five years she spent living in that cave in Pylea.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

a lot of this is just bad/lazy SF/Fantasy writing - she's the "science" person, so she can do whatever "science" things are needed to fit a given plot. But it's really annoying, and it makes it easier to find the character annoying.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

a lot of this is just bad/lazy SF/Fantasy writing - she's the "science" person, so she can do whatever "science" things are needed to fit a given plot. But it's really annoying, and it makes it easier to find the character annoying

Oh absolutely. You see it in other SF related shows too. Sam on Stargate leaps instantly to mind. I don't like her either but it's fun watching Dad drool over her.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

WORD. I said pretty much the same thing in my journal. Her seemingly limitless knowledge of all things science was just too much for me to suspend my disbelief

Yep especially since physics (her field) is so very very different from chem and bio. (my fields) that you don't often see cross over. BUt as DL pointed out (LJ ate my response) that it IS typical SF hack writing. We see it elsewhere's like Sam on Stargate

[ba4ever.livejournal.com]

Wow, pretty much agree with you on BTVS except I'd flip the Buffy and Giles around. Giles is so stuffy and British, but GAH! He's so damn sexy and loveable and...English!

Really, I had no idea they started attacking Marc HIMSELF? Wtf? What did he ever do to them. Also...I like Riley, I'm a slight B/R shipper bwahaha.

not as emotionally invested in ATS...but I so get your Connor love, he's so fascinating. He's so complex and dark and vulnerable. While I'm not a Connor lover, I understand and accept him. I also feel that way about Dawn, am I the only person who doesn't hate her?

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

Yep, poor Marc was targetted especially on the fan boards where it's easy to say stuff without people really knowing who you are.

so get your Connor love, he's so fascinating. He's so complex and dark and vulnerable. While I'm not a Connor lover, I understand and accept him. I also feel that way about Dawn, am I the only person who doesn't hate her?

That's exactly how I see Connor. And no, I didn't hate Dawn. I didn't have much time for her when she first appeared, too much of a bratty teenager but as someone on my list just said, Dawn pretty much IS an accurate 14-15 year old girl in attitude plus having to deal with all the stuff she has to deal with.

Mostly I like dealing with her in future fic where I can have her grow up out of those snotty teen years.

[ba4ever.livejournal.com]

Well I think it's very interesting, I mean, she definitely seeks attention, but I get it, it's hard to feel "special" when you have big sister hero Buffy with superpowers you know?

Dawn pretty much IS an accurate 14-15 year old girl in attitude plus having to deal with all the stuff she has to deal with.

That's what I've been telling people for so long. I can't really fault her, I think it was accurate, well for someone in her situation at least. She was SUPPOSED to be the annoying teenager and I can't hate her or MT for doing a fabulous job. That was her role, that's how they wrote her and that's how she played it. I like reading fic about the Dawn/Buffy relationship, it's always interesting.

Oh and I hate Spike and his weasely lover whoreshipper.

[midnightsjane.livejournal.com]

I never disliked Dawn. She kind of grew on me, the little sister who had to deal with a super hero for a big sister, plus learning that she was a magical key. I have a younger sister, and also an older one, and I totally related to a lot of the sibling rivalry stuff. So no, you're not the only person who doesn't hate her. I liked her a lot especially as we watch her maturing over the last two seasons.

[ba4ever.livejournal.com]

oh me too! I liked Dawn especially in S7, and I kinda like reading fic where she's more mature, I love the B/D interaction.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

I liked her a lot especially as we watch her maturing over the last two seasons.

I liked that too though it wasn't very consistent then again is it consistent in real life?

[mzzgoddessblue.livejournal.com]

I never understand why fans hated Riley so much. Personally, I would've killed to have a fella like that in real life. Maybe that was why fans didn't like him. Here we have a supernatural show, full of demons and vampires - we've just seen Buffy and Angel's big love affair, and then Buffy's next boyfriend is a perfectly ordinary (ok, 'cept for the whole initiative thing)handsome, wonderful, caring man. He's the sort of guy we all want. But because he wasn't Angel, or dark and mysterious, or even non-human, I think that's why a lot of fans turned against him. Personally, I liked seeing Buffy with a human man. She had so much of the supernatural ghoulies in her life, to see her with a normal human, who - as we thought at the time - had no idea of her other life, or even that there were things that go bump in the night, was interesting.
As for Dawn, first season she was on, I hated her (I never hated the actress, note! I'm a tad more mature than that..heheh). She annoyed the heck outa me. It was all me me me me poor me, without a single thought for another person, and I really thought the rest of the gang were too easy on her. I wanted to see someone shake her and tell her to wake up to herself, and look around at how everyone else was suffering. (yes, normal teenager). However, by her second season, I really started liking her.

[mzzgoddessblue.livejournal.com]

As for Connor...well, COM knows how I feel about him so we won't get into that...heh. However, I always felt sorry for VK. Here he was, coming into an established series, one that had almost a cult following, beloved by the fans, and he was playing the son of the major character, and he didn't even like the major character - whereas all the fans did - and spent his entire time tyring to kill him. I think the fans wanted to see a sweet Angel/son thing happening, and that was one of the reasons they turned against him. Plus, we all know what happens when a baby is introduced into an established series..."jump the shark" anyone? But like I said, as much as I disliked the character of Connor, I sympathised for VK. It coudln't have been easy for him.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

At least working with the cast was enjoyable for him and he brought out some real depth of acting in DB which sometimes isn't easy to do apparantly.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

pretty much in agreement here. I think though maybe the fans were a tad hard on Dawn because let's face it WHAT teenager isn't already self-absorbed

[mzzgoddessblue.livejournal.com]

When it comes to characters vs actors, I LOVE Spike, but couldn't care less about JM. He does nothing for me. I dont' even have an urge to see anything else he may do. Of course, seeing as he had a hand in the creation of a character I love, I do admire that. I don't dislike JM - I just don't think about him. And believe it or not, I even got a little tired of Spike towards the end. The whole soul thing bugged me, like everyone else. I'd like to have seen him continue loving Buffy while still evil. It would have been an interesting exploration.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I like to see the works of the actors but I really don't want to know much about their personal lives (most of them are just too weird).

I'd like to have seen him continue loving Buffy while still evil. It would have been an interesting exploration.

I really don't like SPuffy but I'd much rather have seen this or see Spike work to his salvation without a soul. Masq and I had an interesting conversation about this and she has a point. the soul was THE defining thing for good vs evil in Jossverse and he'd had to break his own ruling against that to get around it. Of course during this debate I forgot to bring up Doyle. He's half demon. Wonder if he, like Connor, has a soul or is he doomed (well yes of course he was but you know what I mean)

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

Masq and I had an interesting conversation about this and she has a point. the soul was THE defining thing for good vs evil in Jossverse and he'd had to break his own ruling against that to get around it.

That would have been a problem. If Spike can achieve salvation without a soul (not that much of what he'd done without a soul led me to think he was on the path anyway) then it makes the heroes mass murderers. Belief that Angel's soul was a punishment - and that it took a century and he still had trouble handling it - is really the only defense they even have for not ever trying to resoul somebody else.

I don't think the writing was prepared to handle the moral implications of that. IMHO - this is where we really start to bump up against Whedon's limitations as a worldbuilder.

[mzzgoddessblue.livejournal.com]

I really don't like SPuffy but I'd much rather have seen this or see Spike work to his salvation without a soul

Hmm I may have mis-spoke myself there (how unusual..). I'm not a spuffy fan - at first it was fun to see Spike mooning over Buffy, and the whole destructive relationship was interesting to watch. But what I meant to say, was that I would rather have seen Spike attempt redemption, and try to love, without the soul. It would hopefully have been interesting to watch him do the whole redemption thing while still, of sort, evil. Watch an evil person struggle with a change, see things in himself he didn't liek and try to change them.

[dlgood.livejournal.com]

The soul didn't bug me, inasmuch as I thought it was a definite necessity if Spike were ever really to be "good" or "saved".

But then - I didn't think he needed to be "saved" from a story perspective. Sometimes, there are people you can never really trust or rely upon, but whom you can or have to do business with. And I had pegged Spike in that category. But this is something Whedon doesn't like to write. Spike has to be saved, because for Whedon, "doing business" is corruption/evil, and something heroes are not supposed to do.

Usually, RL hereos don't have the luxury of hewing to that sort of absolutism, because there's just too much pressure. But that's how Joss rolls, so that's how his story has to go.