Random thoughts on feedback

[cornerofmadness]

I guess this is somewhere between rant, essay and a question, namely how do you handle feedback? We’re all well aware of the problems with feedback (and what feedback whores we’ve become especially those of up growing up doing paper zines and were happy if three people a year wrote to say how much they liked your story/art). For the most part we don’t get enough feedback. It’s certainly one of the reasons I’m not going to be taking too many more ficathon challenges. I don’t mind not getting a lot of feedback but when you write a story for someone I don’t think it’s asking too much to get a little thank you at the very least even if you didn’t like the story or it wasn’t what you wanted. I’m running about 50/50 on getting a response and I know a lot of others are too. I’m thinking am I THAT bad in answering these challenges? Somehow I’m not sure.
That aside, since there’s no way of making people give you feedback (which is one of my annoyances with the ‘if you don’t feedback me I’m going to stop writing this story’ crowd. To me that’s an instant turn off). I’m more curious what others do with the feedback you get. Me, I like to thank the person if I can and often I get involved in conversations with the feedbacker. Heck, that’s how I got to ‘know’ most of you. Now, we all get flamers from time to time. I’m not too worried about them. I DO wonder why is it that they feel they need to flame something especially when the pairing is listed at the top of the story. Just don’t read it if you don’t like it. I know where the delete button is and I use it quickly on these people. I will edit that crap right out of archives like Fanfiction.net.
My concern on feedback currently is how do you handle your regular feedbackers who are constantly putting in little annoying things (check out my reviews at ffn for examples)? Now sometimes we might disagree with how a writer handles a character and say something. That’s okay with me. Sometimes we might beg for the inclusion/exclusion of a certain character. That’s okay too. It’s when this becomes the only focus of the feedback that I begin to get irritated. I wouldn’t mind it if they beg for a certain character and still give great feedback. I have one regular reader for whom this has become a running joke with us. Does anyone else have the problem of your readers writing merely to dictate which characters should do what? You get, ‘nice chapter’ and I want ‘fill in the blank?’
Am I the only one who has regular readers who no longer comment on your story other than to complain you still have THAT character in the story? A hundred other things could happen in the chapter and THAT character might have two lines and the only feedback you get is to belittle THAT character. Am I the only one who has regular readers that get furious if Spike isn’t the perfect fighter or that Wes isn’t a bad-ass or if someone gets the better of Angel and/or Buffy? I wouldn’t mind if it was some random feedbacker making this complaint but lately it’s been my regulars who want to Mary Sue those characters. It’s gotten to the point that I dread opening reviews because I’m tired of getting marching orders for what has to happen and complaints that I still haven’t killed off Spike or Connor or you get the picture.
Like I was saying, I like to talk to my readers. I’ve politely pointed out that I LIKE that character and will continue to use them or illustrated with example that all the characters from time to time FAIL on the show. No one’s perfect. This has been totally ignored or argued so I’ve pretty much given up on that. I was just wondering does anyone else have this problem. Is it just me and if not, how are you handling it? I hate just replying to the positive reviews and ignoring the weird and/or negative ones but it’s starting to go that way. I don’t mind getting negative reviews if they have something constructive to say. If they’re right, I’ll go change the mistake. If I can prove they’re wrong, I’ll illustrate why I think that they’re wrong. If I get something like this ship sux, I just hit delete.

Comments

[bashipforever.livejournal.com]

I've had this problem on occasion and I deal with it pretty much the way you say you do. I give them my reasons for doing what I did and then I try to just move on if they continue. I find this is more of a problem with the ff.net crowd then anything. It seems if things don't go the way they want it to then they feel they are somehow entitled to tell you how the story "needs" to go. It makes me want to say excuse me who is writing this story?

Although, I have on occasion used people's suggestions. Sometimes it helps when I've written myself into a corner and I'm going where do I go with this? The whole fresh eyes thing I guess. However there is a difference between suggestions and what you're talking about I think. I've had several people just insist I kill Spike or wail because I did kill Spike. I've also had people tell me how squick Dawn/Spike is. I'm like Meh I think Angel/Cordy is squick so go jump off a bridge :D

On the ficathons I have to agree with you. I'm pretty much less then 50/50 on feedback for stories I've written for people. I feel the same way you do. Someone took the time to write a story for *you* You should have the courtsey to respond even if it's not really what you had in mind.

I also like to talk to my reviewer's. It's also how I got to know pretty much everyone I know in the "writing" community, either by leaving feedback and that author talking back and forth to me or vice versa.

I think in the end you have to write for you and while feedback is glorious, not everyone is going to be happy with what you wrote. If I get one person who says I really liked this story/idea I'm satisfied that maybe I wasn't completely on crack when I wrote it. Of course if I get drowned in reviews I'm estatic ;)

And good God I'm long winded about this subject. I'll shut up now

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

Well i think it's a topic near and dear to all of us. I was hardly short winded on the subject (is that even a word?)

But I agree. I write for ME (which is why I'm impatient with the if you don't feedback me I won't write crowd). And yes, sometimes the feedback does guide the story and I appreciate and credit that.

It IS the small group that feel they have to dicate what you're doing. Fine, I can handle a suggestion but whenI tell you that isn't going to happen nagging me in every review just annoys the crap out of me then I feel ungrateful. I guess what I wish is that if all you're going to do is issue me orders for my story that you wouldn't even bother.

Like I said, I grew up writing fanfic in the paper zine days. You never got feedback. That didn't matter. The only time NOT getting feedback really bugs me is on the ficathons. I wrote you a bloody story. Acknowledge it please, even if you didn't like it as was the case on my Angel ficathon. But hey, she told me exactly why she didn't like it and while we disagreed on the historical accuracy etc, it boiled down to it wasn't the story she really wanted but at least she took the time to tell me why. That's better than nothing. I keep hoping people wrote the Connor ficathon people directly and at least said thank you (because I sure didn't see that in the LJ's)

[bashipforever.livejournal.com]

I completely get your point on all of this and I think a lot of writers do.

And yes the if you don't feedback me I won't write people bug the holy crap out of me. Makes me not want to even read it on principle alone.

I'm always so excited about ficathons and getting my story (presents!) that I always try to leave feedback for them and let them know how much I really appreciate the effort. And it is possible that some of them did write the authors directly. I know on occasion I have seen "my" story come down on lists before I actually saw it on LJ and I sent feedback that way.

Leni did something in her LJ that I need to do in mine. She just really encouraged people to read a story and feedback to the author. Well at least you've given me a topic for a new LJ entry ;)

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I remember Leni doing that. I'm part of bookishwench's feedbackathon too. The no feedback stuff is endemic but like we've both said we write for ourselves. It's when I'm writing for someone else that I'd at least like something more than crickets in the inbox. Ah well, can't worry about what you can't control.
That in mind I need to check and see if MY stories for various ficathons have gotten done yet

[aaronlisa.livejournal.com]

to be honest, the only feedback i get in general about my writing is from you guys at Sunnydale writers and some of the people on my own fanfic group. I rarely get feedback either good or bad when I do a ficathon (and trust me I've written for this one person quite a bit, and I am beginning to think that perhaps I should just write what I want to write).

However with that in mind, I do know when I first started reading, I was very nervous about approaching an author to tell them "hey I like your stuff."

And as someone who still tries to read a lot of fanfic, I don't say I don't like the inclusion of that character. AT my own group I try to read every single fic that's archived and some of it just maks me go "huh?" But I still find something positive to say. I've read fics too that were great but I've thought if it had used this or that it would be better. I rarely say that to the writer, personally I like to see where the writer will and is going to take me and so on.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

Yeah I know what you mean. Sometimes I do think a story might have been better if this and rarely I tell someone that because it's THEIR story. I'm looking at that in the feedbackathon. I don't honestly think a certain character would act that way but I may say that but say WHY (you know, if they just gave me that much I'd be happy) I feel that way but that would be just a tiny part of over all feedback.

You're lucky in that Sunnydale is actually one of the best feedback giving lists I've EVER been on. no lie, the best.

And yeah I also know what you mean about writing for the same person again and again. I've gotten the same person multiple times and have had someone else get me multiple times. For ficathons I think I'll be sticking to just ones with pairings for the most part that way I'm not suddenly stuck with let's say Wes or Angel and get a female character I could never in a million years see them with an have to write that and either write a crap story or beg to be reassigned which I've only done once but that's because I was accidently assigned a slash story.

[aaronlisa.livejournal.com]

If I feel comfortable enough with the person, I would probably tell them that I really don't think that a character would behave that way. With the feedbackathon, I will probably be honest and say it even if I don't know the person. But I've seen stories that have been really good with the exception of one character acting "off" and no explanation for it.

And I love Sunnydale because of that.

It's weird I was thinking this morning I've written so many stories for these ficathons and I think Kristi's the only person who actually got back to me for the story I wrote for her.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

That sucks, just one. Boy I hope I don't owe feedback to you on a story for me. I'd feel like a real butt head. Kristi is excellent at getting back to you. So are SJ and Leni (I know SJ got back to you on the Connor story. If you didn't get that let her know).

Yeah occasionally we all might write a character a little off. It's easy to do especially if we don't like the character or we need it for the plot. I dont like when someone just bashes a character but we've had that rant before. I know for me, it's hard to write Andrew or Kennedy without them feeling off because I dont' like them but I try to find parts in the show and use them (like Andrew in Damage which is where I got most of his actions for Fata Viam Invenient) but it's hard to do.

for the feedbackathon I'm holding back nothing since that's what it's about. But I've lucked out, the stories so far have been really good. Nothing that's made me feel bad about the one or two nit picks that I've made so far.

[aaronlisa.livejournal.com]

I think I did get the feedback from SJ for the Connor story so that makes two... out of how many? I know other people have gotten back to me but a lot of times the person I wrote for hasn't.

[scratchingpost1.livejournal.com]

Hey, Aaronlisa. Since we're on the topic of feedback here, I have to ask you something. Have you had a chance to read the Angstathon story that I wrote for you? I was asked to be a backup writer and write your request.

[aaronlisa.livejournal.com]

no last time I checked it wasn't ready... I will check it.

[scratchingpost1.livejournal.com]

It's posted in both my journals. It's called 'What she left Behind.' Here's the link to part 1: http://www.livejournal.com/users/mrsdrake/12427.html

[aaronlisa.livejournal.com]

okay I will check it out.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

Yeah if you look at my other replies, it appears to be par for the course. I just find it somehow rude. And on that note, I need to see if my Ripper fic has been posted and my Harmony and Faith ones for that matter

[aaronlisa.livejournal.com]

Harmony one hasn't been posted at the site, or at the list, I've just been so behind...

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

thanks. I didn't think so. crazygirl did tell me she was way behind on all her ficathons.

[leni-ba.livejournal.com]

I’m running about 50/50 on getting a response and I know a lot of others are too. - Truly? I did not get into the ficathons to get a story for me (though it's nice!). In fact, I'm sure I still have three to read (including the Connor one, mind to give me the link to the ML?). I remember that I was going through a huge author's block back in April, that was why I signed up. So, for me, the point is having fun - and not a seizure! - when writing a challenge. I've learned a lot about myself with them, the fics received are just a pretty (very pretty!) bonus and I tell the authors what I think about those stories as soon as I read them.

Heck, that’s how I got to ‘know’ most of you. - *waves*

Does anyone else have the problem of your readers writing merely to dictate which characters should do what? - Well, I write one chapter stories. Readers either like or dislike it, they don't have room to ask for changes, because there's no 'next episode' chance. I'm sorry you feel bugged, though, because your stories are really good, no matter which pairings/characters you use in them.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

interesting your take on why you went into ficathons. I think a lot of us didn't go in to 'get a story' in so much as we either reallyliked the character/pairing or wanted to stretch their wings. I know I did it for that reason more than anything but I still would appreciate the effort being acknowledged even if it's just one word, 'thanks.' I dunno maybe it's a little old-fashioned of me or selfish. I'm not sure.

Thanks. I'm glad you like my stuff regardless of pairing. Even when I DO write single chapter stuff I get the directions for the sequel or next chapter (i've actually started marking those little stories as one-shots and I still get people who just don't get it). I guess it does bug me when I don't get feedback along wtih the I want this. I'm thinking well, try writing it yourself but of course not all readers can write...

Connor ML - http://www.livejournal.com/users/cornerofmadness/22553.html

[leni-ba.livejournal.com]

I dunno maybe it's a little old-fashioned of me or selfish. I'm not sure. - Be sure that it's not old-fashioned or selfish (selfish?! Whyever would it be selfish?).

I'm thinking well, try writing it yourself but of course not all readers can write... - I differ. It's more a case of: 'Few readers are willing to be critisized like they critisize'.

Thanks for the link.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

You're welcome for the link. Does that mean you almost got the beast done (bad Connor, go punish him).

I'm glad it's not just me being selfish. It's been known to happen.

"I differ. It's more a case of: 'Few readers are willing to be critisized like they critisize'.

Very interesting and could well be true in many cases.

[marenfic.livejournal.com]

I know exactly what you're talking about on FF.net. There are a few people who consistently make requests in the review. I tend to ignore it after a while-- I don't typically write a story with no idea of what's going to happen in future chapters so either the requester lucks out and I'd already planned on adding that character or they don't get what they ask for. It kind of baffles me a little and makes me wonder how many writers on that forum write around review requests.

I'm 0/3 for feedback on ficathons I've completed. It does irritate me a little, but I'm pretty happy with the stories I've done for ficathons and I've gotten feedback from others on them so that makes me happy. I will never understand not reading and saying thanks in that situation though, even if you hated the story. (I'm also 0/3 on having my story written, but that bothers me less).

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

Ouch 0/3 for both sucks. Yeah I don't mind not getting feedback on stories I wrote just for me. And while I don't do ficathons for the praise it would be nice to hear thank you or even I didn't like it and why.

FFN is the place where I see most of the marching orders. LIke you I rarely shape my fic around my reviewers requests. Occasionally my more astute readers will give me ideas that help shape a wip but not by much. The ones who get me are the ones with THEIR favorite character and insist on him being in every chapter. I'm like read the summary. It's not even set in Sunnydale or this is obviously THIS ship so if you hate it why read it.

[rahirah]

I get comparatively little feedback in proportion to the amount I write. I think there are two reasons for that--one, because I'm terrible at leaving feedback myself, and two, because I write what's basically one long saga rather than a lot of short stories. Many readers simply aren't willing to invest that much time in a single story.

However, those who are willing to hunt my stuff down and read it seem to be, overall, inclined to correctly-spelled and interesting feedback. I don't think I've ever gotten a real flame--I did get a couple of cryptic e-mails once which =might= have been from someone complaining that a sex scene was unbelieveable...but they didn't reference a particular scene or story, were virtually illegible, and seemed to be talking about a threesome, which I've never written...so who knows. I scratched my head and deleted them without responding.

If someone e-mails me, I try to respond with a thank-you. I rarely respond to reviews left at archives.

One thing about writing one long saga is that while I get the "Please do this/kill X/bring in Y" feedback, I've also got something a little different going. My fic has developed shippers. I have a Tara/Souled!Vamp!Willow/Kennedy romantic triangle going on at present. I've got people rooting for Willow/Tara, and people rooting for Willow/Kennedy (I've made people like Kennedy! Woot!)

I have the entire story plotted out very thoroughly, I know exactly where I'm going with all the characters, and usually I just nod and smile when people beg me for one outcome or another. I want people to be in suspense there, wondering what will happen.

OTOH I also have 'UC shippers.' I've been very clear from the beginning that I'm writing a Spike/Buffy story. I include a ton of subtext, because there's a ton of subtext in the show. So there's a certain degree of latant attraction and sexual tension between my Spike and my Willow, which only got ramped up after she forced him to sire her (like I said, it's a LONG story) and there are occasional slashy moments between my Spike and my Xander, and so on. I think it makes the story and the characters richer that there's all these different levels of relationships between them, that Spike and Xander, say, are A) rivals in some sense for Buffy, B) can't stand each other because of the nerd/cool-guy-who's-really-a-closet-nerd thing, C) reluctant friends and allies for the exact same reason, D) =might= on some level be attracted, so forth. Subtext Is Fun.

However, that doesn't mean I'm obliged to make any of it text at any point. I've had to come right out and say "No, Spike and Willow are NOT going to end up together in this story, and if that's what you're hoping for you're going to be sadly disappointed." I'm really pleased and flattered that people have gotten this invested in my characters and what's going to happen to them, but it does get frustrating when they ask repeatedly for something I've said flat out that I have no intention of doing.

I don't think I've ever had anyone complain that my characters aren't perfect enough. I love my version of the characters; in some ways they're more real to me that the canon versions. But I try very hard not to fall IN love with them, and keep their faults and flaws in mind. If they don't screw up, fail, or make the wrong decision now and then, there's no conflict and no story. But again since I write the long stuff, astute readers can generally see the train wreck coming several chapters in advance. *g*

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

I get comparatively little feedback in proportion to the amount I write. I think there are two reasons for that--one, because I'm terrible at leaving feedback myself, and two, because I write what's basically one long saga rather than a lot of short stories. Many readers simply aren't willing to invest that much time in a single story.

Same thing here on all accounts. I?ve also wondered if it was because I tend to write ensemble action pieces instead of shippy ones.


-I did get a couple of cryptic e-mails once which =might= have been from someone complaining that a sex scene was unbelieveable...but they didn't reference a particular scene or story, were virtually illegible, and seemed to be talking about a threesome, which I've never written...so who knows. I scratched my head and deleted them without responding.

Sadly I?ve gotten things like that from professional editors. ?We don?t accept vampire stories? Um, Mr Editor there ISNT a vampire in my story.


people rooting for Willow/Kennedy (I've made people like Kennedy! Woot!)

To me that?s a major accomplishment so good for you.

I have the entire story plotted out very thoroughly, I know exactly where I'm going with all the characters, and usually I just nod and smile when people beg me for one outcome or another. I want people to be in suspense there, wondering what will happen.

Same here. I have on occasion used suggestions in WIP?s usually on a subplot or something that I didn?t think was that important but when you have a half dozen people asking about it you realize you can?t leave it dangling there.

However, that doesn't mean I'm obliged to make any of it text at any point. I've had to come right out and say "No, Spike and Willow are NOT going to end up together in this story, and if that's what you're hoping for you're going to be sadly disappointed." I'm really pleased and flattered that people have gotten this invested in my characters and what's going to happen to them, but it does get frustrating when they ask repeatedly for something I've said flat out that I have no intention of doing.

THIS is exactly what I?m talking about. I liked your points on the subtext thing and I agree. There is often a lot of that in mine too. But when something is obvious stated as a certain ship WHY are you pestering the writer to change it. (My Buffy/Connor one is getting tons of heat but I expected that)
I don't think I've ever had anyone complain that my characters aren't perfect enough. I love my version of the characters; in some ways they're more real to me that the canon versions. But I try very hard not to fall IN love with them, and keep their faults and flaws in mind. If they don't screw up, fail, or make the wrong decision now and then, there's no conflict and no story. But again since I write the long stuff, astute readers can generally see the train wreck coming several chapters in advance. *g*

I couldn?t agree more. I think the flaws are what make them interesting.

Late to the party as usual *sigh*

[yseultdb.livejournal.com]

My general reaction has been to bitch in my LJ. This works really well, because then sane people attest that I am not crazy, wacko, or sick. This always makes me feel better.

Then I write a WTF reply that I save in my drafts folder for a week.

Thenk I delete the offending feedback and pretend I can's seeeeee it. Lalalalalah.

Re: Late to the party as usual *sigh*

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting approach. I HAVE used the store a letter thing for FRIENDS who have pissed me off.

If I get a real flame and it's not signed (which is 99% of the time, i mean who signs flames) then I do delete it. If it's legitimate criticism then I leave it.