Writerly Ways

[cornerofmadness]

I had a great Writerly Ways in mind. I've had it there for two weeks. Today it is gone. Seriously. evil_little_dog remembers me talking about it but neither of us remember what it is. Sigh.

I did find out last night my prediction came true. Remember me saying sooner rather than later female authors of m/m fiction were going to be called misogynists? That came out yesterday, and from the reactions of the authors on my list, it used many quotes out of context. I'm sure there are some who do write the bitch wife/ex but I've yet to see it. I have seen readers who want no women and the authors trounce them for saying it. I'm not linking to it because it just pisses me off (I will send a link if someone wants to see it).

So in lieu of my beautifully constructed post on writing, let me do a quick poll. I was surprised a while back that one publishing house doesn't allow epithets. I know I talked about it at the time. You know what I mean, 'the detective', 'the blond,' 'his lover' etc etc. I do use them. I like the reminder of looks or occupation especially in a multi-character book. I think calling someone a lover adds more intimacy than just the name.

However, when someone else brought this up, several of the authors went off about how horrible they are (the epithets). So it got me thinking, what about if they are use in moderation? Personally I get bored if it's always pronouns and/or names. They claim that's invisible and the reader doesn't bog down on them. I disagree. I find it very noticable and distracting. How about you?


[Poll #1971876]


Yearly word count -

Soldiers of the Sun - Beating head against wall. Rewritting ch 16

Splinters of Silver - didn't touch

Yule - haven't written crap. sigh

Comments

[rahirah]

It depends on how they're used. I see too many fanfics (and even some published stuff) that reads like,

The taller man glanced at the blonde detective. "What should we get for dinner?"

The shorter man shook his head, irritated at the blue-eyed man's obtuseness. "Don't care. Not hungry."

"Well, you have to eat something," the younger man insisted.

And that's not even much of an exaggeration. Epithets can be useful in certain circumstances, but too many writers way, way, WAY over-use them.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

I can't argue that. I think the overuse is causing the current backlash.

Unfortunately for me writing gay fiction I end up with an overuse of names because of pronoun confusion. An epithet can break that up some.

Thanks for chiming in.

[evil-little-dog.livejournal.com]

If they're used in moderation, I don't mind them, but, for example, in my own writing, I'm less like to use a epithet even in a long paragraph. I mean, if I'm talking to someone about my brother, I'm only going to refer to him as my brother as an introduction, and after that, I'll use his name.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

I agree. Moderation is the key but right now there are a sizeable chunk who want none at all.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

You hit the problem on the head with the gay lit pronoun issue but I agree. If it's overused it's as annoying as hell but one or two on a page isn't so bad.

oh that just drives me nuts. They beg for us to write diversely but once we do they tell us how wrong we are to do it.

[drummerdancer.livejournal.com]

I can't stand epithets, but that might be in due part because of their extreme overuse in fanfiction. I can't tell you how many times Ed is referred to as 'the blond alchemist'. Like, OK, we get it; he has blond hair. Just call him Ed and move on already!

/end rant. Sorry. This is my single biggest pet peeve at the moment.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

Some agree with you. I think just as many disagree. Stripping them out leaves you with a boring litany of names and pronouns that add absolutely nothing to the picture you're trying to draw. It's the perfect way to kill description. I'm actually wincing at one story that will be out soon where I had to pull them all out. He did this and he did that and he did this other thing. flat as two week old coke as a result.

[drummerdancer.livejournal.com]

But isn't the same also true of dialogue tags? It's recommend to only use 'said' and 'asked' and to strip away all the rest, as they only serve to distract from the story and pull the reader out of the dialogue. Which side of this debate do you fall on? Do you like or dislike unique dialogue tags?

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

I'd rather an action than a dialogue tag. said and replied are fine. If used in moderation the others are fine. I think that's the key: moderation.

[drummerdancer.livejournal.com]

Okay, I can agree to moderation. But I'll have to 'see' moderation to believe it (because I think many use too many epithets & dialogue tags and don't even realize how excessive they are).

[apgeeksout.livejournal.com]

I don't mind epithets when they're used sparingly and with purpose. I feel like there should be a clear plot/thematic/characterization reason why the POV character is thinking about the other character in terms other than how they'd usually address them.

Like, if the POV character is familiar with Roy, but the narration refers to him as "The Flame Alchemist" instead of "Roy/Mustang/Colonel/etc.", then I would expect Roy to be doing something in the scene that leads them to focus on that aspect - doing an impressive piece of alchemy? dutifully slipping into his Hero of Ishbal persona? or letting it slip at an unexpected moment?

In the context of a sex scene, if one partner is thinking of the other as "the detective", then I'd also ideally want something in the scene along the theme of investigating/uncovering what the other likes and how they work together.

But if they're just two dudes having coffee, I don't really care whose eyes are blue-er, unless the POV character has some in-story reason to be more invested in that descriptor than in names at that moments.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

yes I have to agre with you on most of this (though I would like to know eye color etc if it has meaning like this coffee date is just that a date)

[apgeeksout.livejournal.com]

(though I would like to know eye color etc if it has meaning like this coffee date is just that a date)

True, but I think I'd rather have that come out in something like:

"As Pedro recounted [charming first-date get-to-know-you story], Eric was struck again by the warmth in his brown eyes. He wondered if clients were as eager to spill their secrets to Dr. Flores as he was."

than by swapping in "the brown-eyed man" or "the therapist" for names/pronouns. Those details may belong in the scene, but when they're turned into an epithet - the single thing that identifies the character in that moment - they take on extra weight, and I think where epithets become unwieldy and distracting it's because the significance of that detail is out of proportion to whatever it is that's actually happening in the scene.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

I'll agree with that

[leni-ba.livejournal.com]

I find them useful when I'm writing about two girls or two guys. Nothing is more confusing than when you have to re-read a scene just to understand who said what.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

same here. Especially when I'm writing m/m erotica.

[ishte.livejournal.com]

On the subject of epithets, I'll say that it can get annoying if the writer is using nothing but epithets (ETA: See rahirah's example) to identify characters. But 'he said, she said', is also uninteresting to read. It's important to use your character's names fairly often, but I don't see any reason why it should be disallowed to occasionally use a different descriptor for a character. I have evil_little_dog to thank for showing me some years back that I really wasn't using my character's names as often as I probably should have been. I think my writing has improved because of it.

[cornerofmadness.livejournal.com]

I agree with you entirely. That's how I see it. I'm not sure why so many people have issues with it. No matter how many times I hear he said, she said is invisible, I have to disagree. I find it boring.