Writerly Ways

[cornerofmadness]

I spent too much of this day backing up the old computer (my god the useless files on there) and grading so this post will mostly be a question to you all so I can get back to writing. I haven't even broken 1K yet.

So I was thinking about shows like Buffy and Supernatural where it is growing increasingly impossible to hide the monsters and the things they do. While my story is set in the 80s without all the cell phone video cameras around, there are still people around especially on a college campus. One of the beta readers in my writing groups asked why the police weren't more curious about group and know to call them. And I'm like fair point.

So my question to you all is this, what would you think if the group of monster hunters used a little magic to erase memories of the attacks and/or convinces the police they're trusted allies? Is this coercion one step too far? Is it believable? I mean there is only so many times you can claim a gas leak (how many times did they try that on Buffy? At least once) Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks.

Also I wanted to share this bit of wisdom from Lou Diamond Phillips

Open Calls

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Links from around the web

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Snippet - “If it helps, they’re not usually like this,” Dan said.

“Probably dressing to impress the wanker. Both of them are hot enough he’ll probably trip over his own tongue.”

“Aw, thank you, Howell,” Grace said from the top of the stairs. She posed for a second in her red Benetton suit that she wore a gold shirt underneath. Her favorite red fedora rested on her dark curls, no doubt worn in hopes of solidarity with Robert and his fedora. “How do I look?”

“Ti’n uffernol o ddel!”

“Does that mean good?” Dan asked.

“It means she looks pretty as hell.” Howell grinned.

Grace checked her plaid Swatch watch. “We’re really running late, Al!”

“Coming.”

Al appeared in tight, ripped jeans and a half shirt that barely came past her breasts, baring her toned belly. Her hair had been teased up and sprayed with electric blue coloring mirrored in both her eye shadow and lipstick. Dan had seen the look before. He liked it. “So am I helluva pretty too?”

“Secsi iawn.” Howell replied.

“Okay that sounded like sexy something. I’ll take it,” she said thundering down the steps.

“Iawn is very and it’s hard to hide the sexy.” Howell’s grin broadened. “This Robert bloke won’t be the only one tripping over his own tongue.”

“Tongue if we’re lucky.” Al arched her eyebrows and Dan groaned.

32869 / 50000 words. 66% done!

Comments

Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>>So my question to you all is this, what would you think if the group of monster hunters used a little magic to erase memories of the attacks and/or convinces the police they're trusted allies? Is this coercion one step too far? Is it believable?<<

* The ethics of affecting other people depend entirely on the magical system. In Wicca and many others, altering someone's memories (or indeed casting anything for any reason) without informed consent is extremely wrong. However, in Voudoun, it's totally fair game and people do that sort of thing all the time. So if there's a black caster in the group, and that's their tradition, go for it. Just be prepared for the white witch to have a conniption about it.

* If instead the spell is not a targeted alteration or control, but rather a general spell to encourage cooperation, that's acceptable in most traditions.

* A spell to attract compatible people is fine in all the traditions I know of, and common in many. This is a great bet if you want a positive police/supernatural relationship.

* Trust is what you build into it. Violating people's boundaries by manipulating them with magic is not going to build trust. Remember the musical episode of Buffy.

* As for plausibility, with magic many things are possible. But memory is a funny thing, and not nearly as easy to erase as some people think. It might come back later. Maybe the officer had brainwashing-resistance training or torture-resistance training or something like that. It's a gamble; you never know if it's going to work. I mean, look at the Winter Soldier, that's a great example. Decades of brainwashing, torture, freeze damage, drugs -- and HYDRA still didn't manage to scrub all the soul out of the body. Stubborn things, souls.

I'd say you have an opportunity for many different paths here, and some of the ones I've mentioned are things people rarely write about. Up to you whether any of that appeals to you personally, as it is your story.

Re: Thoughts

[cornerofmadness]

You gave me a lot to think about here, thanks

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

*bow, flourish* Happy to be of service.

Magical ethics is an interest of mine, especially across traditions; and I take a very fractal approach to plotting or analyzing stories.

Re: Thoughts

[cornerofmadness]

I haven't thought about it much as I tend to use wholly invented magic that is more of the battle ready type. that said this time I AM using magical systems from folklore so it is something to consider especially when I do wonder how believable is it to have everyone else in the world totally ignoring the big bad monsters

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> I haven't thought about it much <<

Magical ethics is a very large, diverse, and interesting field that spans numerous systems in this world plus an even wider range of fictional ones. In the later, the mechanics hardwired into the world sometimes make a huge difference. Frex, World Tree has racism hardwired into damn near everything, because it was literally handmade by a bunch of gods who made a specific set of Prime races ... and then a bunch of "monsters" some of whom are genuinely horrifying and others are just sapient people who didn't get a plot stamp. But it's a great game for poking around that stuff, with excellent support both for sociological gaming and hack-n-bash.

>>as I tend to use wholly invented magic that is more of the battle ready type. that said this time I AM using magical systems from folklore so it is something to consider <<

I hope you have fun working out the logistics and ethics.

>> especially when I do wonder how believable is it to have everyone else in the world totally ignoring the big bad monsters <<

Various solutions have been proposed for this and similar issues.

Frex, in my Terramagne, most people won't recognize a superhero or supervillain with their costume off. Not because they're stupid, but because they think of that as a persona -- kind of like how some actors who usually appear in elaborate costumes/makeup are not well recognized without it. Has to do with how the brain recognizes people and things.

With monsters, it can be things like most people just naturally shy away from them because they feel strange and offputting, just like how folks here will avoid the one place with really bad vibes, even if they're not into the occult. Other settings, monsters actually have ways of repelling people, like a dragon's "fear" aura. Some settings have monsters that mostly lurk in shadows or avoid people. But if they're having big fights in broad daylight, that would be harder to conceal.

Also, hiding anything in a world of ubiquitous surveillance like now is increasingly difficult, except for things like vampires and faeries that don't show up on film or scramble technology.

Don't underestimate people's willful blindness either. I've warned people that I fry technology, and they refuse to believe it until they have seen it. Some won't believe odd things even happening right in front of them. That guy in some movies who goes "La la la, it's not happening" while aliens are invading or whatever? Totally exists. I mean, come on, we have lulus who think the Moon landing was faked. How different is that from people in a monsterful world refusing to believe in monsters?

Re: Thoughts

[cornerofmadness]

the idea of bad vibes is a good one. Someone else worried about the people never learning if they can't remember but if the bad vibes are there...

Anyhow this has been helpful and lead to some inner thought about hey what DOES our band of do-gooders do to the people abusing magic and/or summoning demons. There is some uncomfortable stuff for them in all of this and that is helpful so thanks

Re: Thoughts

[ysabetwordsmith]

>> the idea of bad vibes is a good one. <<

I'm happy I could help.

>> Someone else worried about the people never learning if they can't remember <<

Prevailingly true.

>> but if the bad vibes are there...<<

... then people will have a nonspecific warning ("this feels like a risky place") rather than a specific one ("vampires live here, get the holy water"). That can mean the difference between life and death in some situations.

It also depends a lot on someone's relation to their instincts. I damn well listen to mine. A lot of people don't.

Here's an interesting scenario to consider: If your characters wipe a policeman's memory, and he then walks into a den of monsters because he doesn't remember they are there, and they eat him, to what extent are the characters morally culpable for his death and how will they handle that? Is it different if he consented to the memory wipe? If he was wiped to protect someone (e.g. a werewolf cub) who is technically a monster but not a credible threat and he had threatened to kill them? If he left behind a pregnant wife and small children?

>> Anyhow this has been helpful <<

Yay!

>> and lead to some inner thought about hey what DOES our band of do-gooders do to the people abusing magic and/or summoning demons.<<

That's often a concern. Is this a world where people just kill the bad guys? Banish them to something like the Phantom Zone? Is there a prison they can't just walk out of? Heck, are they abusing the sex demons? (I've read some great fanfic on the importance of not raping leccubi.) Or are their opponents people who are more foolish than evil, and can be convinced to quit causing problems by less violent means?

>> There is some uncomfortable stuff for them in all of this and that is helpful so thanks<<

I'm happy I could help. :D I'm also happy to see writers exploring these topics in more depth than the mainstream typically does.

[the_siobhan]

I'm thinking about the device from Men in Black where they could wipe memories of people who saw the aliens.

The only seemed to use on people who figured out that the oddities were aliens, 'cause honestly people are so weird on their own most of the time monsters and space creatures wouldn't be my first guess.

[cornerofmadness]

You have a point there

[sperrywink]

I thought of Men in Black too, as well as Harry Potter. So, while it is dodgy IMHO, there is fictional precedence.

Good luck writing!

[cornerofmadness]

this is true, thanks

[under_the_silk_tree]

The consent issues of the trope of erasing memories have always bothered me. Because you are not only robbing people of their memories you are also robbing them of their experiences. How will they learn without those memories? How will they avoid or stop these monsters if they can't remember that there is danger in the dark? Since they can't remember they are put in even more danger because they cannot learn.

But if you would address that as a conflict maybe within the group or even just acknowledge the fact it is a bit not good then I think it could be used. It is a sticky situation, but it could be interesting.

[cornerofmadness]

You know that's a very good point. That could be an interesting point of contention between the generational layers in the group thanks

[aaronlisa]

With Supernatural, it was very rare that magic was used to wipe people's minds/memories. When it was used, it was often looked down upon as evil. In the earlier seasons, the show did show people learning about the paranormal and either calling the Winchesters again or becoming hunters. This included regular people as well as law enforcement.

My headcanon for Buffy is that people either knew deep down inside and just decided to ignore it for whatever reason or with law enforcement they knew but they were told if they wanted to keep their jobs they'd ignore it. Especially with the Mayor and when he left no one knew what to do so they just willfully ignored it.)

For your question, I think mind magic would be too much coercion. I think that far too many times writers feel that people need to give the viewer/reader an explanation as to why people are ignoring what's happening when a lot of times human nature is to just ignore it if it ain't bothering you. Look at Kolchak - there were people that knew and people that would reach out to him but for the most part people just want to ignore whats in front of them. I think in the police files from one of the Jack the Ripper murders, someone reported hearing a woman scream/cry out that she was being murdered and the person ignored it and went back to sleep.

I'd suggest having it that most people ignore what's in front of them, believe the simplest "normal" excuse, cases get under-reported to the media and public, and/or those in the know actually know who to call.

You're also dealing with a community that is somewhat transitory in nature. You can use that to your advantage as well.

[cornerofmadness]

the reason I was questioning it was that the beta readers weren't buying into people just looking at the weird and ignoring it. We are much different than 20 years ago now, far more likely to pay attention

that said this is FORTY years ago so not so much (also how and waaah it can't be)